Let's talk politics...

avatar! wrote:

Jay: I know that politics is often convoluted, however I don't really buy into the "everything is a conspiracy" theory.  On the other hand if you have facts, please do share.  Otherwise just saying "look deeper into it" doesn't mean much.

You don't need facts from me. I never said there's a conspiracy (although you seem to believe in an arab conspiracy - I guess that might make you the conspiracy theorist). I never even said I had any answers. What I believe to be true isn't important here. You don't have to listen to me or anyone if you so choose.

All I suggested is that you put a bit of thought into it yourself and find your own answers. That piece I quoted that you wrote yourself has more than enough 'facts' to consider as it is.

But your response to that suggestion speaks volumes.

XISMZERO wrote:

You sound like, to me, you lack objective thought seeming to blame the U.S. for everything wrong in the world today and that doesn't equal objective credability on your behalf. Let me ask you this: Do you believe there's a war of cultures and that there are terrorists who will kill and give their lives for a fundamental cause? How would you classify a catastrophe like 9/11/2001? Also, why would you object to Democracy to most or all nations?

I know you didn't ask me, but...

I will say that I  think U.S. has a lot to do with most of the instability in the world today.

As for 9/11, I'll just say that the official story isn't believeable AT ALL.

As for "democracy", I don't understand how a nation can use bombs to *impose* a so-called "democracy" onto other nations.  It doesn't make sense.

Yuvraj wrote:

in fact to them America is the 'terrorist', and checking up on history of last 18 something years, well ehm that's not really wrong to think.

I support that statement.  Except that, I'd say American terrorism started as far back as Manifest Destiny.

Last edited by Kenology (Oct 11 '06, 23:29)

brandonk wrote:

Politics aside...how great would it be if we had neo-technology that allowed a super-power to wipe out the 'bad people' with a cosmic laser-ray, while keeping the infrastruce (buildings, etc) in place, un harmed, all the while without spreading toxic nuclear waste...With current technology, one major bomb goes along way to f'ing up the rest of the world.  I hope this is clear whenever someone with wayyyy too much power decides to detonate their 'stock' of world-ending imperfect bombs...

This wouldn't work in the best interests of interested economic parties - if you don't destroy infrastructure, there will be no contracts to hand out for rebuilding a country.

To XISMZERO:

XISMZERO wrote:

You sound like, to me, you lack objective thought seeming to blame the U.S. for everything wrong in the world today and that doesn't equal objective credability on your behalf.

Funny how from the very little pieces of text I wrote down you gathered that I blame US for everything wrong in the world.  I never stated such thing. In fact I never stated an opinion. This discussion is heated, but we should try to maintain logical deduction and interpretation.

XISMZERO wrote:

Interesting how you paint your dissenters as single-minded and igorant when you, sir, seem to fall under those same demeaning names. I guess we should accept a few things from your enlightened perspective that a) *all* Middle Easterners hate the U.S. (because Saddam Hussein, of course, never did anything as bad as America) and b) It's somehow bad to "spread democracy to the entire world." c) Only people who are in the tank for America use judgmental terminology like "terrorism".

Again, I find it bewildering how you have concluded this from my two posts. Your words 'all' and 'bad'  in a) and b) respectively are very bad cases of fallacy.

XISMZERO wrote:

Let me ask you this: Do you believe there's a war of cultures and that there are terrorists who will kill and give their lives for a fundamental cause? How would you classify a catastrophe like 9/11/2001? Also, why would you object to Democracy to most or all nations?

Yes, unfortunately there is a war between cultures now. But fundamentalism is also present in Christianity (and has been for much longer), but it's just not so evident through the media. I don't want to sound cliche, but 'it takes two to tango'. In this time, the Islam is clouded by lots of negative energy. Not nearly reaching the violent heights of Christianity during the era of the inquisition, but definitely far far from the golden age it once was in. But the whole anti Middle-Eastern mentalilty here is just the type of thinking that world doesn't need right now. The polarization that is in effect now is just plain freightening. There are claims that America ignited this polarization for a very clear purpose and that the whole 9/11 was done by it's own goverment. I'm not sure of that yet. I wouldn't be too suprised if it was true. But I'm not going to blame anyone so easily as you guys do, which is why I reacted to Avatar like that, and I think he should be aware of the fact that there are A LOT of people who think he is totally wrong on this thing.

Kenology wrote:

As for 9/11, I'll just say that the official story isn't believeable AT ALL.

You mean terrorists didn't really destroy the Twin Towers?  Perhaps they're still standing, and we just can't see them!  Or was it a government plot?? 



What a joke!!!  You believe whatever you want, I'm just happy the vast majority of the world can use basic logic and understand clearly what happened:

Which is that Islamic fudamentalists used terrorists to ram planes into the Twin Towers, thus killing thousands of innocent people (not to mention hundreds more on two other planes). 

-avatar!

Out of curiosity, avatar, have you ever READ any of those alternate 9/11 theories? While I admit that many conspiracy theores can be QUITE off-the-wall, these have some a far GREATER sense of plausibility than you'd expect. I read them, and was extremely intrugued. My younger brother, who admits to great skepticism, read them...and told me later that he had trouble sleeping that night.

I encourage you to check them out for yourself. Before you scream "It's just a waste of time!", think about how many others have said that...and STILL were shaken up by what's said.

Here you go:
http://911review.com/
http://www.letsroll911.org/phpwebsite/

Last edited by SquareTex (Oct 12 '06, 11:16)

Kenology: You seem to me like you're of the blame America first crowd. Do you paint America to be a bad guy when it takes a stance on something? Something(s) the U.N. will not do like holding some people accountable? The U.N., an organization which does very little to uphold justice in the world. The U.N., which failed to do something about a Saddam who would not cooperate with inspectors, violating countless mandates.

The same Europeans that did not want us to invade Iraq was because they had deals with Saddam. Look into the "Oil for Food Scandal" to find out about more about the inept U.N. (apart from them not doing anything about the current Darfur genocides, which they claimed was not genocide). Let's also factor in that most European (and Canadian, see: CBC) media is government-controlled - most of it is anti-U.S. sentiment which doesn't help our image to most regular, moderate people. Before you claim how bad America is, realize that we have given countless blood and treasure to better others around the world. We are not perfect, we make mistakes, but our intentions are noble.

Yuvraj: Yes, you're correct and I will concede your point that Christianity, as all religions, has extremists/fundamentalists as well as reasonable people who just want to live their lives. I understand what has happened in the past with the dogmatic Catholic church for centuries and that Protestantism was designed in the image of Catholics denegrating the teachings of Jesus. However, I disagree that Christianity is something we need to worry about today.

Today, it's in fact Muslim fundamentalism that is in scope. Here we have a religion that, even in it's moderate believers, doesn't do a whole lot of condemnation in the community of those extremists who bomb themselves and sight Islamic beliefs religion to be very rigid and intolerant. Please let me hammer the fact that the violence in the world is being sanctioned by Muslim extremists - this includes various terrorist bombings in Europe, and the genocide which has been going on against Christians in Africa.

I do not subscribe that Muslims are evil people and that all believers follow their book literally and are tought to cast death upon all non-believers. I really want to be proven otherwise, by those moderates, in greater number by having the sane people of the religion speak against the crazies who saw off heads on camera and suicide bomb.

The media, worldwide, also isn't inclined to condemn Muslims (just one example is the New York Times) because of the clear fact that the dominant Christian community, harmless, turn the other cheek while Muslims tend to take more extreme measures of hate and intolerance. If you don't believe me, just look at the reaction in regard to that silly political cartoon about Allah with the bomb in his turban.

And yes, I will say it. America is the best country. Why? Because we are a fusion of nations that brings out the best in all people of all nations, working together. We are all free to believe what we want, and pursue what we want. I have not travelled abroad, but rarely do I ever hear testimonies of those not proud to come back to the country after being away for a while. This is not to say I am ethnocentric, I greatly respect the contributions of other nations (I listen to game music in excess for one).

Would you like Saddam Hussein or Amadenijad to be in our place? How about Hitler if we never stopped him? I think the mere fact that America's flawed, yes, but successful system exists really bothers the mostly Socialist Europe. Do you question why so many immigrants come here (which includes the influx of illegals)? Clearly, America offers more than any other country in the world and I am thankful everyday for being lucky enough to be born in this country and express my thought freely.

XISMZERO wrote:

Before you claim how bad America is, realize that we have given countless blood and treasure to better others around the world. We are not perfect, we make mistakes, but our intentions are noble.

Wow, I'm going to react like Kenology here: Oooh phuuuleaaase.  You mean, took millions of liters of blood. *refers to civilian casualties in Irak reaching numbers of half a million*.

XISMZERO wrote:

The media, worldwide, also isn't inclined to condemn Muslims (just one example is the New York Times) because of the clear fact that the dominant Christian community, harmless, turn the other cheek while Muslims tend to take more extreme measures of hate and intolerance. If you don't believe me, just look at the reaction in regard to that silly political cartoon about Allah with the bomb in his turban.

Christian community turns it's cheek, hahah, don't make me laugh. You are confused with Gandhi here. Oh and that example of the denish cartoon is a bit dated dude. Obviously it was absurd, but you should at the same time ask questions why they reacted like that. They feel cornered, and the one thing that keeps them going is their fate. If someone makes fun of that, well they feel threatened. And it shows how powerless they feel. I'm suprised that even now, months later your thoughts on this are so simple.

XISMZERO wrote:

And yes, I will say it. America is the best country. Why? Because we are a fusion of nations that brings out the best in all people of all nations, working together. We are all free to believe what we want, and pursue what we want. I have not travelled abroad, but rarely do I ever hear testimonies of those not proud to come back to the country after being away for a while. This is not to say I am ethnocentric, I greatly respect the contributions of other nations (I listen to game music in excess for one).

Dude, we are talking your govornment here. You are free to think whatever you want, though Im not sure what and who you mean with 'the best in all people of all nations'. 

Oh and this:

XISMZERO wrote:

Clearly, America offers more than any other country in the world and I am thankful everyday for being lucky enough to be born in this country and express my thought freely.

You didn't travel abroad did you...it's all clear then.

SquareTex wrote:

Out of curiosity, avatar, have you ever READ any of those alternate 9/11 theories? While I admit that many conspiracy theores can be QUITE off-the-wall, these have some a far GREATER sense of plausibility than you'd expect. I read them, and was extremely intrugued. My younger brother, who admits to great skepticism, read them...and told me later that he had trouble sleeping that night.

I encourage you to check them out for yourself. Before you scream "It's just a waste of time!", think about how many others have said that...and STILL were shaken up by what's said.

Here you go:
http://911review.com/
http://www.letsroll911.org/phpwebsite/

I took a look at the websites you provided, and I am now, more than ever convinced that these theories are a load of crap!  Just to give you an example, one youtube video provided was supposed to show the government coverup by showing an explosion.  In the (poor quality) video you saw some people talking, the camera moving, and then in the background a sudden increase in brightness.  This is supposed to be proof?!  And the thing was, the people (supposedly Australian cameramen) continued talking despite the supposed explosion!  I don't know about you, but if there was an explosion anywhere near me, I sure as hell would look to see what was happening! 

Another part of those websites showed images "confirming" that one plane that hit the tower was not the plane the media claimed it was!  They showed images which they claimed are indisputable, but how can it be indisputable if you can barely see the blurred image??  The resolution of the image is so poor that there is no way it's convincing, and expanding a poor quality image only makes the "zoomed in" part worse...but apparently if you take an image, zoom it, put some arrows here and there, that is supposedly truly convincing!!

Then of course there are all the self contradictions in these websites, which seem to be as numerous as the stars!  In fact, there are conspiracy websites which bash other conspiracy websites...  I guess even conspiracy artists have to battle for attention!

If you try hard enough, you can make a case for anything, no matter how stupid and imbecile. 

From Wikipedia:
Alternative theories are a form of conspiracism common throughout history after a traumatic event in which conspiracy theories emerge as a mythic form of explanation (Barkun, 2003). A related criticism addresses the form of research on which the theories are based. Thomas W. Eagar, an engineering professor at MIT, has suggested they "use the 'reverse scientific method'. They determine what happened, throw out all the data that doesn't fit their conclusion, and then hail their findings as the only possible conclusion."[145] Eagar's criticisms also exemplify a common stance that the theories are best ignored. "I've told people that if (the argument) gets too mainstream, I'll engage in the debate." This, he continues, happened when Steve Jones took up the issue. The basic assumption is that conspiracy theories emerge a set of previously held or quickly assembled beliefs about how society works, which are then legitimized by further "research". Taking such beliefs seriously, even if only to criticize them, it is argued, merely grants them further legitimacy.

The German magazine Der Spiegel summarily dismissed all skeptical accounts of the 9/11 attacks as a "panoply of the absurd", stating "as diverse as these theories and their adherents may be, they share a basic thought pattern: great tragedies must have great reasons."[146]

Scientific American,[147] Popular Mechanics,[148] and The Skeptic's Dictionary[149] published articles that challenge and discredit various 9/11 conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theorists have jumped on the fact that the Popular Mechanics article was contributed to by "senior researcher" Ben Chertoff, which conspiracy theorists claim is cousin of Michael Chertoff -- the current head of Homeland Security. No evidence for the connection has been revealed and Ben Chertoff has publicly denied the allegation.[150][151]. Popular Mechanics has published a book length version of their article[29]. Michael Shermer writing in Scientific American described 9/11 conspiracy theory scholarly rigor as "the mistaken belief that a handful of unexplained anomalies can undermine a well-established theory lies at the heart of all conspiratorial thinking (as well as Holocaust denial and the various crank theories of physics)." [30]

-avatar!

XISMZERO wrote:

And yes, I will say it. America is the best country. Why? Because we are a fusion of nations that brings out the best in all people of all nations, working together. We are all free to believe what we want, and pursue what we want. I have not travelled abroad, but rarely do I ever hear testimonies of those not proud to come back to the country after being away for a while.

Mostly been staying out of this one, but I have to admit this made me, as the internet kiddies say these days, LMAO.  Whew.  That was a good one.

Kenology wrote:

Avatar!... you do know that people who use information from wikipedia lose all credibility, right!?

Wikipedia is an excellent source for many things.  Although I would never use it for serious indepth research, for basic knowledge it is just as good as anything you will find, so long as your can check the references.  Of course it is not perfect, some of the information posted is inaccurate, but that's true for everything.  A research done by Nature, a British science journal which is considered the foremost science journal in the world, found that Wikipedia which allows anyone free access, is just as good as Enclyclopedia Britannica in terms of the accuracy! 

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 … 8900a.html

Of course it won't surprise me one bit if you say Nature is just a dumb journal written by people who don't know anything... as far as I can tell you believe there's only one person who knows something, and that would be you.  I'm happy to report that's not true!

-avatar!

avatar wrote:

Of course it won't surprise me one bit if you say Nature is just a dumb journal written by people who don't know anything...

You just love to anticipate what you feel I might think about something!  Stop trying to be the thought police or Professor X and stick to what I actually say!

And take Jay's advice, research the official story too, don't just settle for it and dismiss another view just because your leadership tells you to.

Either way, science is science.  And the fact that you would just point at a blurry photo of an airplane to refute the other side of the argument is telling.  There is much more indisputable evidence that you didn't talk about.  Can you find another reason to disagree with the "conspiracy nuts", or was the blurry plane photo enough to dismiss them?  You seem to be focusing on disproving the fact that there was government involvement instead of, as usual, objectively looking at this and then making a true rationalization without your emotions getting involved.


Scholars for 9/11 TRUTH

Last edited by Kenology (Oct 13 '06, 10:40)