Let's talk politics...

Kim jong IL is trying to recreate his favorite episide of wile e coyote...

Kenology wrote:

This world is ripe with hypocrisy.

It is indeed. I don't want any country to have nuclear weapons. Not one. I'd rather we didn't go above name-calling and even that should be frowned upon.

And yet for any country with nuclear weapons to have the audacity to tell another they can't have them, well, that just doesn't sit right with me.

Qui-Gon Joe wrote:

Seeing all the Japanese people around me nervously glancing at the sky all the time since yesterday because they know exactly what it's like when someone uses a nuclear bomb seems good enough reason for me to condemn any antagonistic dictator from carrying out that kind of test...

That's true.  But what I think the Japanese are more concerned with the fact that they're not the top dogs in the Far East anymore (militarily).  Couple that with the fact that the Koreans and Chinese haven't forgotten about the atrocities of Imperial Japan that took place not so long ago, and... yeah.

Jay wrote:

I don't want any country to have nuclear weapons. Not one.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Jay wrote:

And yet for any country with nuclear weapons to have the audacity to tell another they can't have them, well, that just doesn't sit right with me.

Exactly.  That's the hypocrisy I'm speaking of.  Why is it OK for the U.S. and certain other European countries to have nukes but no one else!?  That's the real question, and they're never asked this. 

Sonic Panda wrote:

keep the heavy weaponry out of the hands of nations with conquest in their eyes. So what happens is the larger, well-stocked nations try to use their dominance to keep the smaller ones in line, which not surprisingly leads to anger, resentment, and an even keener desire on the have-nots' parts to get the goods. Every country will be armed eventually, but hopefully the spectre of Mutually Assured Destruction will keep everyone at bay...

Agreed.  It's no coinicidence that the nations with the nukes are also the nations that have a misproportionate amount of the world's wealth.  Which came about through imperialism - conquest of foreign lands.  Life is too good at the top of the status quo, so they have to employ all types of clandestine schemes and develope all kinds of insane weaponry (you should see some of the shit they have - it takes a sick and desperate mind to have to propensity to come up with this stuff) to make sure it doesn't falter. 
People are fighting against this system, and it's giving way.  The Western governments know this very well, and they're in a crisis.  I bet they never expected that the Israelis, with all of their 'made-in-America' military might, would get their asses handed to 'em by Hezbollah.

Last edited by Kenology (Oct 10 '06, 9:53)

Kenology wrote:

Life is too good at the top of the status quo, so they have to employ all types of clandestine schemes and develope all kinds of insane weaponry (you should see some of the shit they have - it takes a sick and desperate mind to have to propensity to come up with this stuff) to make sure it doesn't falter. 
People are fighting against this system, and it's giving way.  The Western governments know this very well, and they're in a crisis.  I bet they never expected that the Israelis, with all of their 'made-in-America' military might, would get their asses handed to 'em by Hezbollah.

I don't know you personally, so I'm not trying to make a personal attack on you as a person, but when it comes to politics I feel that you have NO CLUE about what you're talking about.  I know both Israeli and Lebanese, hell I lived in Israel years ago.  Although Israel did not destroy Hezbollah, and they were sloppy in the war, they certainly accomplished what they expected (sending a clear message to terrorists).  The big losses are all on the Lebanese side, and many blame Hezbollah for this.  The political situation is much more complicated than you might think, and you notion of "get their asses handed to 'em" is so far from the truth that I really wonder where you get your news from.

Furthermore, you seem to have all these anti-US sentiments & conspiracy theories for some reason.  I'm the first to say that I'm not happy with Bush, and I think our government needs better leaders, but if you think you're living under such an evil government why don't you go live in China for a few years??  Try to say something bad about the government over there, and once you get out of jail (if you do) in say 15 years or so, let me know if it's changed your viewpoint.

Lastly, I do think you are certainly entitled to your own opinion.  I would like to add that many countries before WWII, including the US, saw Hitler as a threat, and figured the best course of action was to let things run their own course... I feel that you have this same sentiment.  "We should let other countries do what they want, who are we to judge them?"  Well, the consequences of WWII (over 40 million lives later) are all in the history books.  A replay in this case, with nukes involved, could easy cost billions of lives.  Not a risk worth taking.

-avatar!

edit: made an addendum

Last edited by avatar! (Oct 10 '06, 10:53)

avatar: wrote:

I don't know you personally, so I'm not trying to make a personal attack on you as a person, but when it comes to politics I feel that you have NO CLUE about what you're talking about.

Dude, don't go all ad hominem on me!  Your words are choke full of sentiment with very little objectivity.  If I don't know what I'm talkin' about, then school me.  Because you did a really poor job of it.  I'll show you: 

avatar wrote:

I know both Israeli and Lebanese, hell I lived in Israel years ago. Although Israel did not destroy Hezbollah, and they were sloppy in the war, they certainly accomplished what they expected (sending a clear message to terrorists).

Actually, it was the other way around.  Hezbollah sent a clear message to the imperialists.  And who's the terrorist?  Hezbollah?  It's crazy how out of touch with reality people actually are.  Israel is a terrorist state... and an illegitimate state at that.  They terrorize Palestinians day in and day out, occupying Palestinian land and oppressing the indigenous population.  The media (particularly in the U.S.) sanitizes and skews these stories to make it seem like it's the Palestinians who are the aggressors and Israel is just "retaliating" -- it's blatantly taken out of context. 

avatar wrote:

The big losses are all on the Lebanese side, and many blame Hezbollah for this.

Who blames Hezbollah for this?  Only the people who back Israel's Zionist regime would blame Hezbollah for Israel firing missiles and killing innocent civilians.  It's not a coincidence that these same people control the media as well.  They even killed UN workers, but I bet you blame Hezbollah for that too.  How about asking yourself WHY Israel exists in the Middle East in the first place?  Why did the Zionist (and British) choose Palestine in 1948?  Why not create an Israeli state in Europe, particularly Germany, as Ahmadinejad said?
Israel purposely bombed Lebanese infrastructure and killed civilians.  Who's the terrorist again!?

avatar wrote:

The political situation is much more complicated than you might think, and you notion of "get their asses handed to 'em" is so far from the truth that I really wonder where you get your news from.

The professional, U.S. backed and armed Israeli army got shutdown by a bunch of Hezbollah guerillas.  It's an objective fact.  Get over it.

Here's a great 9 minute video regarding some of the history of Lebanon and Israel, Hezbollah handing Israel it's ass, and the blatantly biased media.  This video is insanely entertaining by the way!!!

Also, it was confirmed that Hezbollah badly damaged or even destroyed an Israeli battle ship and shot down Israeli helicopters.  Even the New York Times (or was it the Washington Post?) had to admit that Israel got pimp slapped at the end of the day when all was said and done (I'll try to dig up those links - I'm at work, so gimme some time).

Anyways, back to nukes...

EDIT: Sorry, I missed your last paragraph:

Furthermore, you seem to have all these anti-US sentiments & conspiracy theories for some reason.

"Seeming to have", and actually "having", are two totally different things.  Point out what you mean by that and be specific.  Also, conspiracy theories aren't theories anymore once they're proven to be true...

avatar wrote:

I'm the first to say that I'm not happy with Bush, and I think our government needs better leaders, but if you think you're living under such an evil government why don't you go live in China for a few years??

You and I have two totally different realities, avatar!.  I'm gonna assume we don't come from the same walks of life, and that alone can greatly affect our political dispositions.

Anyways, BACK TO NUKES!  I mean it this time...!

How many of you believe that the West should DISARM their own nukes as well to show that they are serious about peace and living in a world without nuclear energy?

Last edited by Kenology (Oct 10 '06, 13:53)

Pardon my general ignorance, but these are the only politics I really care about:

http://www.amazon.com/Politics-Dancing- … 64?ie=UTF8

http://www.amazon.com/Politics-Dancing- … 64?ie=UTF8

Kenology wrote:

Only the people who back Israel's Zionist regime would blame Hezbollah for Israel firing missiles and killing innocent civilians.  It's not a coincidence that these same people control the media as well.  They even killed UN workers, but I bet you blame Hezbollah for that too.  How about asking yourself WHY Israel exists in the Middle East in the first place?  Why did the Zionist (and British) choose Palestine in 1948?  Why not create an Israeli state in Europe, particularly Germany, as Ahmadinejad said?
Israel purposely bombed Lebanese infrastructure and killed civilians.  Who's the terrorist again!?

The professional, U.S. backed and armed Israeli army got shutdown by a bunch of Hezbollah guerillas.  It's an objective fact.  Get over it.

WONDERFUL how you're quoting Ahmadinejad!!!!
I'm sure if this was now WWII, you would be quoting Hitler and saying how he's right about the Jews and they are to blame for all poverty in the world.  Is there a difference between Hitler and Ahmajinejad, let's look at facts:

1)Ahmadinejad repeatedly made controversial statements questioning the Holocaust, and criticized European laws against Holocaust denial. These statements were condemned by many governments, by United Nations Security Council and Secretary General Kofi Annan, and led to accusations of anti-Semitism.
Here are some sources for you (lots more exist of course):
*Iran's signals mixed ahead of UN debate by Farshid Motahari (Gulf Times) August 30, 2006
*Iran team face mass protest by Luke Harding in Berlin and Denis Campbell in Cologne (The Observer) June 11, 2006
*Editorial: Ceasefire leaves a region at risk (The Australian) August 14, 2006]
*Iran's psychopath in chief, by Israel by Uzi Mahnaimi in Tel Aviv, Marie Colvin and Sarah Baxter in Washington (The Sunday Times, April 30, 2006): "Ahmadinejad speaks today like Hitler before taking power ... So you see, we are dealing with a psychopath of the worst kind — with an anti-semite." (Ehud Olmert in an interview with the German newspaper Bild)

According to numerous media reports, he stated that "they have invented a myth that Jews were massacred".
*Iranian leader: Holocaust a 'myth' , CNN, 14 December, 2005
*"Iran's President Calls Holocaust 'Myth' in Latest Assault on Jews", (The Washington Post), Dec. 15, 2005]

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan, who is far FROM a friend of Israel and the US, in response to reporters' questions on Ahmadinejad in August 2006, said through a spokesman that Annan "considers anyone who would try to deny the truth of the Holocaust or make false claims about it to be a bigot."
*Secretary-General views Holocaust deniers as bigots, says spokesman. UN News Center. United Nations (August 23, 2006).

2)In October 2005 Ahmadinejad gave a speech that contained where published translations noted that he agreed with a statement he attributed to Ayatollah Khomeini that the "occupying regime" had to be removed, and referred to Israel as a "disgraceful stain [on] the Islamic world" that would be eliminated."
*NY Times October 30, 2005.

Ahmadinejad's comments were condemned by major Western governments, the European Union, Russia, the United Nations Security Council and UN Secretary General Kofi Annan, Egyptian, Turkish and Palestinian leaders (again, these guys are FAR from friends of Israel) also expressed displeasure over Ahmadinejad's remark. Canada's then Prime Minister Paul Martin said, "this threat to Israel's existence, this call for genocide coupled with Iran's obvious nuclear ambitions is a matter that the world cannot ignore."  I totally agree with Paul Martin!  Oh, and if you think this citation is wrong, that the media in the West is making a big deal of nothing, in June 2006, Guardian columnist and foreign correspondent Jonathan Steele cited several Farsi speakers and translators who state that the phrase in question is more accurately translated as "eliminated" or "wiped off" or "wiped away" from "the page of time" or "the pages of history", rather than "wiped off the map". Reviewing the controversy over the translation, New York Times deputy foreign editor Ethan Bronner observed that "all official translations" of the comments, including the foreign ministry and president's office, "refer to wiping Israel away".
*Steele, Jonathan. Lost in translation, The Guardian, June 14, 2006.
*Just How Far Did They Go, Those Words Against Israel?.  The New York Times.  June 11, 2006.

Sounds like Hitler to me!!  The fact that you are citing him, along with all the other garbage you have said is clear evidence that you don't know what you're talking about, and you are obviously lost. 

Oh, and Israel originally was formed with consent by the UN!  Do you know what that means?  It means the world (except for the Arab world) agreed to give Jews (who had been living in the land since Biblical days) a State.  Of course the Arabs refused any compromise, and declared WAR right on the day Israel was declared a state.  THEY attacked first, no diplomacy, no nothing... Of course the Jews were faced with annihilation (once again, since most of those people had escaped the Nazis), but they fought and achieved freedom.  Yes, Israel is the ONLY country which is free in the Middle East!  And Israel also has a population that is 20% Arab, but other Arab states have no Jewish populations because in their minds if you're not Muslim you are lower than a dog.  Don't believe me?  Look at:

http://www.freedomhouse.org

ranks Israel as being free, while on the other hand the lovely regimes of Iran and North Korea are at the bottom!  In fact, Former President of Iran, Mohammad Khatami came to Boston recently, and one of the things he talked about was how it was right for Iran to behead homosexuals!!  It's just unbelieveable in my mind, but sadly that's how it is.

Although I don't agree with Bush, I don't like Bush, I didn't vote for Bush, I think anyone who tries to compare the US with a State like Iran or North Korea knows nothing.

-avatar!

ps I could go on and on... but I'm not sure there's any reason, because no matter what I say, no matter how many articles I reference, Kenology will not believe in anything and simply dismiss them.  Hopefully others will understand.

edit: corrected typo

Last edited by avatar! (Oct 10 '06, 18:25)

Yuvraj wrote:

Avatar, without sounding rude, I'd say that Bush has succeeded splendidly in his plan to legitimize his wargames by planting fear in your life.

I live in the United States, have voted once before and I have not felt any more fearful than on 9/11. I think this brand of "fear tactics" is something the hyper partisans and anti-Bush leagues trumpet in a way to denegrate the president.

I also believe that George W. Bush is a fallable human being like all president's before him in that he has and continues to make mistakes on our current situation (one of which is the lack of his reporting and leveling with people about the war and his *political* inability to be tougher on the US border situation). Furthermore, it's factual that the intelligence received by the country was not only reviewed by former president Clinton and a few other presidents such as Egypt's and Russia's displaying that Iraq had W.M.D.s. Calling Bush a liar and a wormonger is simply irresponsible knowing this alone (apart from silly, baseless namecalling).

Let's just end by saying this: some of the world's biggest threats and instagators are indeed North Korea, and Iran. Most of their rhetoric is hateful and threatening. These are two countries which harbor and condone terrorist activity and do not need to have nuclear weapons in that they will most likely use them against us. The United Nations has continued to do nothing (if you don't believe that just look at the horrible acts in Darfur - everyone expects the US to do something when the UN should be doing more than throwing money at the issue) as they are an impetant and corrupt institution who sees only to denegrate the US. Let's also state that Israel has nuclear weapons - if they're the perceived terrorists why don't they threaten their enemies with them?

In order to be rational debaters, we stick to facts and keep irrational emotional outbreak out.

... and this is why I never talk politics.

Kenology wrote:

Wanderer wrote:

... and this is why I never talk politics.

LOL!

I will admit I learned my lesson pretty early on. Half my family is Democrat and the other half is Republican. Oh, the drama.

avatar! wrote:

Since Israel is such a tiny country in such a huge Middle East, why do the Arabs have a problem with it?

Because they are the indigenous population and they're being oppressed and displaced from their own land.  How would you feel if people just came to your house, apartment, or condo (wherever you live) and place you under their jurisdiction and you have no say so?  Think about it, man.  It's colonization.  They don't belong there.  You're totally oblivious to the true circumstance that exist in the Middle East. 

avatar! wrote:

Israel has never started a war! Israel has never had suicide bombers! Israel has always said they want peace when the Arabs always (and are still saying) they want the death and destruction of Israel and the US! You know why they're saying that? Because they're fanatics and are not willing to live in peace...

And with this, I'm done.  I won't even read the rest of what you wrote.  You're incredibly naive, and not worth my time - you don't know what you're talking about anyways.  Talk to me when you're ready to objectively discuss these issues.  You've internalized the biased U.S. media and are completely brainwashed.  If you want to have the last word, go right ahead and reply...  And with all this said, avatar!... I don't blame you for having "your" opinions, or for basically being the brainwashed drone that they want you to be.  It's not your fault, it's by design.  But try to be more open-minded and objective - that's all I'll say to you.

For everyone else, here's a very good documentary about Israel and Palestine, the filtering, sanitation, and skewing of the news by American media, and the terrorist activities carried out daily by the illegitimate state of Israel, and a telling compare and contrasting of the media coverage of Israel in both the British and American media outlets.  Click here to watch "Peace, Propaganda, and The Promised Land".

Last edited by Kenology (Oct 11 '06, 8:38)

avatar! wrote:

By the way, if a country like Israel is so keen on killing civilians as you claim, why the hell did they drop leaflets telling civilians to get out days before they bombed??  Wouldn't it make more sense just to bomb first?  Of course it would... you know why they dropped leaflets, because they had no intentions of killing civilians.

You can of course draw your own conclusions, avatar, but I'd look a little deeper into things if I were you. You ask very valid questions and yet the answers may not be as obvious as you think they are.